Contingency plan

[Aloys]

I still think that it is too early to think about such thigns because we haven't heard back from Cyan yet. Until we have further information (which might not be before April) we are just building castles in the air. They might bring back UU, they might remove the authentication system, they might go open source, they might just do nothing and move away from Uru/Dni.. Anything is possible at this point, but whatever we may want to do will be tied to what they announce.
Right now we are only showing enthusiasm, which is a good thing, but anything beside that isn't needed for now IMO.

Just a word about engine development:
This is hard and this is long, even using an already existing renderer and with a team of around 7(?) people, we are probably looking at a full year of work, maybe more. And this is voluntary development, that means the most important assets of the team would be dedication and a solid will to complete the project. Again I don't want to discourage anyone, I just want to make sure we have a good idea of the kind of workload such a project would need; that's no easy thing. Starting projects is easy, completing them isn't.

I agree with the 'hope for the best, expect the worst' philosophy, but April 4 is still far away, and many things will probably happen until then.

So again, the idea is interesting, but I think it's just too early to discuss much about it. Beside, we all have projects that need to be completed, Ages, tools, etc. Right now the most productive thing we can do is complete those projects.
I must complete Ahra v1, Adam must complete PrpStudio, Paradox must add Relevance Regions to PyPRP, and Trylon must add animated textures.
Seriously, completing our current projects is probably the best thing we can do, it'll keep busy in a positive way, and it'll show Cyan our commitment.

[MustardJeep]

Agreed and I still need to get my shell to you don't I?

Bah you can wait a little for it, I've started buying furniture for the place.

[Nynaveve]

Aloys,

While I agree with you, I would also like to point out that it is wise to start considering options, and maybe start to formulate a game plan here. While we still have many weeks left and will most surely hear some news in that time frame, most people are sticking to the "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" motto, which follows that we should be thinking about options.

Should Cyan come back and say "Hey, we're doing shards" or "Hey, we're giving it to you open source" or any of our other pipe dreams, then we can let the planning fall by the wayside. But should Cyan say "Hey we're moving on, later dudes!", then at least we are prepared to begin serious work on our own.

But on the flip side, I don't endorse beginning work yet, as we don't know what's going to happen. So I say let us plan and at least we'll be prepared should the worst befall us.

[Marcello]

I agree with Aloys. I expect we hear at least a sigh from Cyan within the next couple of weeks. If they plan anything, they need to keep people interested now.

Which however is my concern with waiting. We lose a lot of people if things can only start in April. Even for the people here at GoW at some point waiting might convert in going. Not that I underestimate this group, but stuff happens. Personally I'm a person to start doing stuff, but I do agree. Wait and maybe at some point see if we can contact Cyan and maybe even negotiate a way to help each other.

[Trylon]

With April being our starting point, let's just use the coming two months to work out the contingency plan.
If Cyan doesn't give a sound or gives a "thanks for all the fish" message, we can just continue, but if they have a solid plan, we'll be just the happier for it.
Any age and story concepts worked out for the contingency plan can be easily integrated into any plans they might have.

[AtionSong]

This sounds like a great idea guys. Definitely keeping up with this. Wish I could contribute more to the conversation...

[Nadnerb]

Cyan spent four years developing plasma the first time, and they had oodles of money and a huge team of people being paid to work on it, not to mention they bought out the original source from another company. (headspin) I'm sorry, but I don't see the idea of just "starting from scratch and building our own engine" as remotely feasible. Interest will wane without the direct ties to Uru, and if you seriously think all the people ready to make ages now will still be here a few years from now when the engine is up to snuff, think again. We cling to Cyan because the alternative is obscurity.

Also, people keep hanging on to the notion that plasma is somehow not up to the task. Ask yourself what that task is. We aren't being terribly demanding of it, and what we can do ourselves barely scratches the surface of what it can actually do. Why are we so quick to reinvent the wheel? It's a natural programmer's urge, I know, but it's terribly over ambitious.

[andylegate]

Well, I think one of the questions I have about a demand about Plasma is this: Is it open source?

I think the idea is: What to do if Cyan says: Goodbye, it was real, it was fun, it was real fun. But that's it. We're putting Uru on the shelf. No we're not going to revive UU. No were not going to allow any shards. No, we are not giving you the source code for anything. Figure out something on your own.

That's the worst case situation that I believe Trylon was talking about. And the discussion was suppose to be: What do we do if that's the case?
Is there something we can do?
Does anyone have any ideas?
If Uru itself is killed off, can we still use our talents that we've worked so hard to learn (building, scripting, tool developing) and try to make something that we can give people down the road?

It's all talk and speculation, and Nadnerb, you are right to throw a cup of coffee in peoples faces.

But, and I learned this in the Navy. You don't just sit there. Even if you CAN NOT do anything right then (and we shouldn't jump the gun, no, we should continue to work like we've been doing), you do not ever, ever, ever, just sit there and wait to see what happens.
You plan. You think things out. You form stratagies. If nothing comes of it, that's fine. Because if something does happen, then at least you're not caught flat footed. Standing there with your mouth open wondering what to do next.
Because you've planned for the worse, and it helps you know where you stand, IF the worse happens.

So, I understand and read what you're saying. But that shouldn't stop people here from thinking of the worst, or what to do if that ends up being the case.

If Cyan kills Uru dead. And I mean all the way (UU will just be another lingering death in many ways), I'll still be here making Ages for Uru CC, because I like to and it's fun, and I have friends I can share those Ages with.
If, down the road, people like Trylon and Almys and Paradox, etc, say: Hey guys, we think we've got an engine that will work. You'll be able to create 3D worlds like you're doing, but some things will change, and it might not be Myst, but we're trying to make it "Uru" and "Gathering"

Sounds good to me, I'd give it a try.

[BladeLakem]

Well, I think something grassroots is an excellent idea. Eric L, former admin of Uru Tapestry, is talking about this too over on UO.

I don't think that the wheel needs to be reinvented completely. There are platforms you can work off of. Crystal Space is not bad and open-source. Unity is not open source, but seems pretty flexible. Etc. But it's a direction I think is important.

Me, I'm not much of a programmer - I'm educated as one, but have no experience doing it besides tiny things. I've not done modeling either, but I can learn. But since there will need to be design and story, I can do that really well.

[Chacal]

We must keep it simple: we just need a way to have multiple players in our Ages.

So, in short-hand:

Plan A- We run a MOUL server with Cyan's collaboration
Plan B - We run a (Alcugs/UU) server with Plasma engine and CC contents
Plan C - We start from scratch with (7d7 or something) and entirely new content.

Trylon, I have serious doubts about plan C, because of the enormous overhead required, but your idea could be a good backup solution.

Trouble is, while a few guys are hammering away at the engine, the architecture, performance problems and all that, the fan base gets bored and starts looking elsewhere. Two years later, the dev team proudly unveils the thing, but there's no audience anymore.

I just saw that happen with two mods for BF2: BFPirates2 and Forgotten Hope 2. I went along with the BFPirates2 team, there were professional developers in the team, artisits, modelers, skinners, etc. They had an existing modding tool and engine (BF2). It took 2 years and by the time it was ready nobody was playing BF2 anymore, apart from the tournament die-hards who would never play a mod. And they didn't have to bother with a story.

Now if you tell me we can keep modeling for CC and by the time the new engine is ready our Ages can be ported to it, that's a different story.