A serious debate that needs resolution.

[LyricLe]

Hey everyone.
I first and foremost want to say that I am a player, not an age creator. I enjoy the creative aspects of the work you all do here and a friend of mine is infact an age creator.
We are having a bit of a debate right now and I'd truly like some resolution. I wont name the stubborn butt at the moment. BUt for all of you out there that are players and creators I need to post this scenario to you.

There are certain aspects to the Myst games that identify them as a genre of their own. In age creation the goal is to create something new and unique but that still follows the Myst "vibe."
I had an idea tonight for a concept for a puzzle in an age being worked on and was told that it did not conform to the Myst type of puzzle and I'd like to know if this is true or not.

For those of you who played URU and URU online, we saw alot of unique things that weren't seen before, such as portals at specific intervals (the pod ages), glowing lights you had to chase after to reach your goal (Minkata), Pellets with formulas (Er'cana) and so on. All were new and inventive puzzles.
The concept we discussed was one that blended some of the newer ideas with some classic ideas as well.
My idea was vaguely as follows:
In a new, user created age, within the limitations of the animations that are available, if you were required to gather items, done via pressing or pushing on specific items, and intangibly accept the fact that this action caused you to "collect" a part of that item, would that be completely against the URU type of game play.
For a better yet very basic example, because words fail me currently: If you had to press upon a tree in an age, in order to gather sap, Then in turn you pressed upon another object to apply that sap that you gathered, (knowing that there is no way for your avatar to carry a viewable item, or for there to be an inventory showing you are holding sap-just with the understanding that the sap is somehow on your avatars hands) would this be accepted as part of a puzzle in a URU age?
While other ages in URU have no required gathering in such a literal manner, we have collected things before like sparkles and joke feathers and such. Using something similar to gathering items and using them in turn to finish your goal would be part of only one puzzle in an age with others and not the only thing to do. This would be conceivable using the concept we already have with pressing buttons and opening doors. It is basically a puzzle based upon an order of pressing, but under the premise of collecting.

My friend very strongly feels this would not be accepted by the community as part of a new age, while I feel that it would be, when fleshed out fully and applied correctly, an excellent way to incorporate a puzzle in user created ages that currently have some limitations.

If I have confused anyone I apologize. I can try to clarify if that would help but I am trying to not divulge the puzzle that I have created thus far.
I truly appreciate any opinions on this matter. Thanks for your time.


EDIT: I'd like to clarify, because we're still arguing LOL.
The argument we have is currently the semantic of using the concept of the word "gathering" and "mixing ingredients"
If you think of the puzzle as similar to that in Kadish, where you were to press the four levers, each one a set ammount of times, in a specific order... in order to raise the ladders to get to the exit. This puzzle would be similar to that. You woud be pressing successive items in order to "gather bits of them" to unlock the final door with the "mixture" you created by pressing each item x ammount of times.
The puzzles are similar but the storyline behind them is the concept of collecting.
I hope that helps a little bit.

[andylegate]

Saying that collecting things does not conform to "Myst" type puzzle or genre.....tells me that your friend needs to play Myst again obviously.
Red Pages?
Blue Pages?

Sound familiar?

While you could collect them, you could only have one, and one only, and then you had only one place that you could "take" it too of course.

Riven: was there not things taken away and things given? Let's see: a linking book, journals.....not really building up any kind of inventory, but still, they were there. While these were not a physical part of a puzzle, they did have clues to them.

Myst III, I can't seem to remember having anything to carry for that one.

Myst IV: I can remember having bubbles, fire, water that I carried.

Myst V: Those tablets sure did seem to be carried by us....and you could put them down anywhere too!

So it would seem that Myst III and Uru are the EXCEPTIONS, NOT the rule.

While it's not possible with Uru's current GUI to have an inventory like that, I would imagine that it would be possible to "gather" something. After all we "gather" the objects in our Relto in a way. totem poles.....in MOUL we had rock rings, sparkle calander marks.

Bottom line is this: Why limit yourself? What your friend thinks is merely their opinion....not the communities opinion. Surely the community would welcome new and challenging puzzles. Not the same old thing over and over again.

One thing Myst III did show us: It's not always some levers you pull, buttons you push, or valves you turn. Sometimes it's plants you mess with, creatures you interact with (Myst IV to on that one).

So in conclusion, I would say your friend is keeping a limited vision for some reason, or just isn't open to suggestions. Then again, if it is their Age, they also can make it anyway that they want to, and they don't HAVE to follow your suggestions either.

[Lontahv]

First of all, it sounds like a great idea, and even if it's not very Uru-y (I think it sounds Uru-like) it'd be a great puzzle for a fan-age.

Now, let me delve into the issue its self.
Reading about it in the post, I got a very Myst-ish feel. Myst contains inventories etc. and so does Uru (though they are disguised cleverly). If you think of the idea in a very pure way, it does seem Uru-ish. If you start to think about other games and their massive use of inventories (WorldOfWarcraft to name one) you start to get the feeling it IS a concept that should be fore another game. This is just "other planets' gravity effecting your earth's seas" so to speak.

If this is done very tastefully (as you seem to plan to) it could be very Uru-like. On the other hand, if you have tons of things to "pick up" it could be annoying.

Over all, it sounds good.

Now, here's a suggestion from me; try not to have it be "real" things you're picking up. Try rather to have it mostly happen in the mind: such as having there be some kind of button, etc. that you press to collect the stuff and beam it to the main puzzle (not that extreme, but tending toward that kind of thing).

Keep on dreaming.


~Lontahv


P.S. In light of AndyLegate's post: Esher was an animal in M5.

Edit: Meant to say this earlier (did I?): It's not a question of Myst-like, it's a question of Uru-like (Uru is very different from Myst).

[LyricLe]

Andy, Thank you very much for your post. I respect your opinion very much.
lontahv Yours as well! You both obviously understood exactly what I meant!

My friend is still arguing that its not "URU-like" since i mistakenly used the word Myst instead of URU, however I am glad to see that someone understood my concept and enjoyed it. I wish that I had the ability to do more to create than think things up.
Again my thanks for your responce and I welcome any others views as well.

[greendragoon]

Myst III, I can't seem to remember having anything to carry for that one.

Ah, but there was. At the end of each age, the player would draw the final symbol onto a sheet of paper. Then they would link back and place the paper on a scanner.

[theclam]

I'm sure any type of puzzle would be warmly accepted by those who enjoy the Myst games.

Andy: Exile had those pieces of paper with Narayani symbols that you collected, along with the pages to Saavedro's journal.

[andylegate]

Ah! Yes, y'all are right!

Funny thing is, I just replayed Myst III about 6 months ago, hehe.

And about things being "Uru-like"........

You can break that down further: Uru:CC like and MOUL like. MOUL= other people to interact with....so solving puzzles can be different (NOTE: Game play experience may change online). Uru:CC on the other hand, it was all on you.
But with Uru:CC you still had to pull levers, push buttons......and I would argue that yes you DID have to collect things: the journey cloths (and the shell cloths).

Okay, yes, we didn't rip them off the wall of course....but you still had to touch them....

And what about the Bahro polls? Wasn't that collecting (and giving away)?

I think (and it's JUST my OPINION) that we keep trying to catorgorize things WAY too much. It should always be about the bottom line.
And the bottom line should be:

Make an Age that people can enjoy. Be it eye candy, interaction....a combo of the two........or, in the infamous words of John Cleese of Monty Python: "And now for something completely different........"

[LyricLe]

Thank you all for your replies. I only wish that my friend could welcome new ideas as well as you all do. We are still hung up on semantics right now...grrrrrr

I think that conforming to a specifc standard would only result in recycling the same old style of puzzles and eventually create nothing more than a steady output of boring ages. Its thinking beyond whats already been done, incorporating new twists on old ideas and totally new ideas that makes URU what it is.
Arguing over something not being URU-ish is an oxy-moron in and of itself.
Myst, URU, whatever you call it, these games are all about creating new worlds, and new puzzles, things to push your mind into thinking in new concepts for each age. That is what makes these games so successful and so unique.

The puzzle I have suggested IS URU-ish (yes I know youre reading this and still going to argue with me) in its concept and execution.

Anyone who isnt bullheaded and would like to share ideas to use in future player created ages is welcome to PM me if they'd like.
Thanks again everyone. Even if my friend does not see it I am glad you all do and you've made my night much easier.

[Lade'e]

Fireflies ...

[pappou]

LyricLe, such an interesting and productive problem you are giving us. Isn't it great that your friend is making you think about it so rigorously? It is clear that your thinking has been stimulated, even as your message makes us ponder.

One of the great problems i have seen amongst those who speak of writing ages, you seem already to have overcome. It lies in Andy's warning to watch out for iron bound categories, and to remind yourself that the bottom line is about the playing of the game. That is good advice for us all to hear – maybe about once a month.

Also i noticed something else in your thinking. You seem very conscious of the power of “meaning”. You called it:

the semantic of using the concept of the word "gathering" and "mixing ingredients"

Are you interested in developing that nascent little notion? Seems to me, with your intelligence, that you might grow that small acorn into a gaming vehicle.