What the heck is BAD talking about?

[andylegate]

but if we are building an inter-guild server the guilds should be in control of the place we set it up on.

Question: so the thought is to have a inter-guild only. No other outside groups that are not "guilds" ? Are we then telling people: If you ain't guild you don't belong?

That's where insisting on hosting a site like that at one of the guild forums, can have a bad effect. You're talking about control, but, I'm sure you remember just how badly the word control goes over with Non-Guild Fans.

Shoot, even here the world "Control" causes people to run screaming or post loudly against it. Just look through the posts on here this past summer.

Control and rules are needed. That's obvious. You can't get anything done if anarchy rules. However, trying to force everyone to be in a guild to even contribute in anyway will make a LOT of people sour.

This isn't about the guilds, or guild vs. guild, or guilds vs Cyan, or any of those combinations. This should be about the community, and the community consists of: Cyan, Guilds, Fan Interest Groups (fan groups that are non-guild), and simply Fans in general.

What better way to show all the Non-Guild fans that all the guilds are willing to not only work together (many are looking right now and starting to wonder if the Guilds can even work together), but can work with everyone else, including Cyan to make something like this happen, than by hosting such a sight at a NON-Guild server.

Of course you did say that a Inter-guild Server being run by the Guilds. But the most popular theme seems to be not just Guilds, but other groups and fans too. I think if we try to throw our weight around, we're going to be disappointed. We're small compared to all the other groups and fans combined out there. Do we want to make the same mistake that many have claimed Cyan made? Which was leaving a VAST resource (Fans) untapped?

And again, majority of fans trust no one, no guild, no group. They tend to trust Cyan only.
Well obviously Cyan won't be holding anyone's hands after a while. So why not show the fans that they CAN trust us (the guilds) and other groups, by simply showing that we are NOT trying to control every single facet.
I think they'll (the fans) be a LOT more open to that.

Just my two cents.....but also how most of the Maintainers (not just the GM's) feel too.

[BAD]

Andy,

I don't really understand your point. I'm talking about running a game server and a development movement. I am not trying to create the nazi regime. I think you and the others who feel this way are over reacting to what I am trying to convey.

I don't agree that most people are not for the guilds. I think there is a very vocal piece of the community that is, but I highly doubt anyone outside that group feels one way or another. Perhaps if you could back up what your saying with numbers of people (run a poll of some sort perhaps) then we could continue from that perspective.

Now if you all feel that the guilds are bad, why are we bothering then? Perhpas this discussion should be moved to another thread entitled "Should we disband the guilds?".

My feelings are no. We have structures set up within the guilds that can be hybridized to work in a central location. We have some of the most skilled and motivated people, and using the guilds as a part of our names keeps us connected to the mythos of the game we wish to be a much more larger part of.

Now what I am hearing from you and Dot, makes me think that a minority of very vocal people in the community are persuading you away from the idea that guilds are a good way to organize Open Source Uru. Watch your sources. You guys have done a great job with the GOMa, and I don't want to see you guys abandon all you have worked for under false pretenses.

So basically lets run some polls and get an idea of what people really think about the guilds. Unless your getting dozens of PMs telling you that people think the guilds are bad, I can't just take you at your word.

[Chacal]

I don't think that's what Andy is saying.
I think he's saying the open-source-Uru forum should not be controlled by Guilds, because the community is larger than the Guilds.
Some people won't like it if the forums are controlled by the Guilds.

That's an interesting point.

Personally I'm not sure it matters where the forum is hosted, as long as it's open to everyone and there's no censorship.
Pragmatic people will say "oh this is where I can voice my opinion. Good." Non-pragmatic people will be unhappy anyway and they tend to congregate on MOUL.

What's important is that the guilds come out with a safe shard and find a way to bring explorers in. If it's empty it won't matter much if it's canon or not, controlled or not.

The only way to make people use it is to provide new content. Canon content is a nice-to-have.

[rivenwanderer]

Quick question: the GoW's purpose is the creation of fan *content*, right? Is the client/server code at all something that the Guild is hoping to organize, or is the Guild's role as far as actual code goes mostly input (telling the coders what features will be most useful from the perspective of the artists/scripters at the GoW)?

I'm sorry if this is a dumb question

[Zardoz]

Let me second that question and amend it slightly. I've constantly read on this forum, specifically from you, Bad, that the GoW is about writing Ages. Now, it seems, you are saying that the GoW is about getting together with the other Guilds and controlling - too strong of a word, so let's say guiding the code development. The former is central to the GoW core mission; the latter is happenstance, as the GoW is the source of a very strong contingent of code developers. The danger, I think, is in assuming that the GoW is the only strong source of the latter. Which is why a more open forum might be worthwhile.

I think a key distinction everyone here and at the other guilds needs to ponder is leadership v. control. A leader is someone who, by dint of skill and experience, is in the best position to organize an effort, and will garner followers if he persuades them so. A dictator is someone who controls things by telling other people what to do, and threatening and imposing consequences if they refuse. Time to decide, folks: Are you leaders or dictators? (I'd pick that latter, but that's just me . . . )

And as for Cyan wants this or wants that, isn't that the last thing that matters to this guild?

Edit: Oooooh, 12 posts, I'm clearly gunning for representative status . . . .

[BAD]

The GOW is the home for tool creation (pyprp), creating ages, and adding those ages to Uru.

What we are discussing here, is an organization of all the guilds. Thus it would be more than just the GOW working on the server and other set ups.

I am trying to get something of a semi-cohesive plan going to use as a roadmap to show people on the MOUL so that they refrain from thinking the inter-guild server project is somehow a threat to other groups creativity. That is it. I am getting the feeling that my efforts are being seen in a different light then I intended.

I also see that this thread is getting derailed. So I am going to split it.

Rereading Andy's post (for the fourth time), I think I get what he means. My initial post was a bit of an over reaction and I apologize for that.

Simply, I agree. I don't think the Guilds should be exclusive one bit. In fact, I am not sure how that idea was conveyed in anything I said.

When I am speaking of control, I am speaking of administration of the forum and server. Nothing more. If it seems I implied anything else, once again I apologize.

3 edits so far!

[andylegate]

Hrmmmm.....I think I would have chosen a different title after splitting the thread. Namely to "What the heck is Andy talking about?" since you (BAD) didn't seem to understand what I was talking about.

Allow me to explain....or try to:

1) I was talking about a seperate forum for inter-guild communications being on a Non-Guild forum, that's not run by any one guild, and where anyone, guild member, non guild member, Joe Shmoe, you name it, could contribute, read, post, ask questions, etc.

2) I never at any point in my post said that Guilds Are Bad, or Guilds Need To Disband, etc.

3) I did say that the Uru Community consists of a LOT more than just us Guilds.

4) That, yes, if you are shooting for a "Guild Only Driven Shard" (sorry, shard is what it will be, leave out the whole community in developement of a "Super" shard or biggest shard, and it will remain small), then yes, I do see where it would be Guild Members Only type of deal.

5) I don't think there was a 5.........:shrug:

So, I was basically addressing the idea of having a forum that's just for guild communications being hosted on a "neutral" area would appeal to more people who are not part of guilds, or other groups, than say something that is totally "controlled" by the guilds.

We've had some discussions over at the GoMa, and we're under the opinion (which is like belly buttons, everyone has one) that the GoMa would like to help, and heavly support a "Super" Shard or Multi Sever Shard that keeps to canon, etc, etc, etc, that is developed, maintenanced, run and yes, I guess "Controlled" by a group that consists of Guilds, Groups, Fans, rather than support a shard that is all that, but only by the Guilds, and not everyone else.

We (the GoMa) also know that at this point it is ALL pure speculation, and only tentative plans can be made, which will more than likely be changed 10^32 times before anything really get's going.

In anycase, the GoMa tends to shy away from anything that says "Control" "Rule Over" "Dictator" "insert your favorite word here" due to the pure and simple fact that we have been pretty much accused of this from day 1.
We would like to support something that involves the whole community, but we we see words like "Control" we get worried, stressed, depressed, and try to distance ourselves right away. That might be irrational to some, but when you get labled "Evil Power Mongers" so many times, it does tend to get to you, and you'll tend to do anything to prove it wrong. Especially since it IS wrong.

So right now, we're sitting on the sidelines so to speak, watching everything. We don't feel an overwhelming rush to jump out there (Maintainers are testers, except odd balls like me that dabble in the Art, and most of us don't have coding experience, but we have seen quite a few people step forward that have been dormant for so long with this new news), as we don't see any clock ticking anywere. The news alone brought people out of the wood work, and rushing back. We don't think they are all going to run away again anytime too soon. In any case it will be a while before any kind of "Super" shard is up and running.

Okay, hope that cleared that up: Andy Says "Guilds Are Good. They Should Not Disband." and that I was talking about a forum.

[teedyo]

I'm confused as well. In the quote above; BAD is saying that an inter-guild server(shard) should be administered by the guilds. I agree with that; otherwise it wouldn't be an inter-guild server.

In his rebuttal, I *think* Andy is talking about forums; saying that discussion of the source and etc. should be hosted at a site that is not affiliated with any specific (sub-)group of fans. I can get behind that as well.

It looks to me that one person said "I like oranges" and the other said "Apricots are bad".

EDIT: Andy beat me with a clarification.

[BAD]

Heh, Ok I get it all now.

Again, I agree with you.

I'll expalin more later, I need to get to sleep.

[greendragoon]

I was kind of saving this idea for further down the road, but this seems as good of a place as any. I was thinking the other day about the leadership in relation to this inter-guild shard and I suppose by extension the central forum connected with it. I agree with Andy in that there is more to the community than just the main guilds. To that end, I got to thinking about how both the guild and non-aligned sides could be represented. Keep in mind this is just an idea and it's probably far from perfect or totally stupid. That's fine. So here's what came to me:

The inter-guild shard would be governed by a council made up of representatives.

The first 5 representatives would be elected by the guilds, one for each major guild. (I'm starting this off with the 5 Cyan-supported guilds, if more arise with sufficient mass this can be adjusted.) The guild representative is elected by popular vote in the guild. But what about the other smaller guilds, you ask? Lets say the Guild of Fine Artists wants a say too in the guild vote. They can choose to become a minor guild under the Guild of Writers. What this means is that when voting for representatives, the votes of the GoFA are counted into the collective total for the GoW. This does NOT mean that the GoW will suddenly start dictating how the GoFA runs it's self. It just means that the major guild and the minor guilds below it share a representative.

But what about the unaffiliated community members? That's where the second group of representatives come in. The next 5 representatives are elected, the popular vote of the entire community. This includes guildmembers, clubmembers, people who like to sit in their Reltos by themselves, everybody. The idea here is that there is equal representation from both the Guilds and the community.

By this point you may have guessed that there is a third and final group of representatives. Note that his is the most axeable portion of my idea depending on what everybody thinks. The final 5 representatives, just votes really as I don't think there will be anyone actually filling these positions, is reserved for Cyan. I would imagine that for most affairs, the Cyan vote will be abstaining, but I felt that it would be worth giving them a say in the matter. But like I said, this portion is open to some major debate.

Anyway, that's my idea. Like it, hate it. That's fine.