Discussion about MODing MOULa (Split from GoW Bevin)

[Chacal]

While they call the shots.
As soon as we start our own servers, it becomes an entirely different ballgame.

It is because of this very mentality of "let's cut out the creator the moment we can" that I hope to god whatever license they release the source under is incredibly strict. I personally can't wait to see people's reaction when they realize their whole "as soon as Cyan releases the sources we can tell them to F**k off and steal their creation" idea blows up in peoples faces.

You are putting words into my mouth. Had we be meaning to do that, we would not need to wait for the sources. It is out of respect for Cyan that we haven't started a public shard, one with fan-created content. Because Cyan had announced intentions to start its own and we want to give it a chance, even though it has no future without new content.

What Cyan seems to want is keep jealous control of its existing content, in the off-chance it could someday develop it again into a commercial venture. Although we smile at this naive idea, it is their prerogative to do so. But since we know it isn't going to happen, Cyan should open itself to our input, and abandon its current philosophy of "if it's not made by Cyan, it's not good".

In that sense, Cyan's arbitrary rule about not adding D'Ni Ages or adding to the city is not viable.
Just adding cute little garden Ages via a second-rate Nexus (the name of which will be the D'Ni word for "irrelevant non-Cyan content that you shouldn't bother with") adds nothing significant to the Uru universe.

D'Ni has to grow! We need, for example, to be able to create journeys through major Ages, that will unlock new parts of the City. Otherwise MOUL will become a cumbersome, graphical chat room. It will lose its momentum, stop, decay and disappear.

If Cyan doesn't change the rules, if the only way to do this is start new servers with our own rules, then so be it.

[Jamey]

While they call the shots.
As soon as we start our own servers, it becomes an entirely different ballgame.

It is because of this very mentality of "let's cut out the creator the moment we can" that I hope to god whatever license they release the source under is incredibly strict. I personally can't wait to see people's reaction when they realize their whole "as soon as Cyan releases the sources we can tell them to F**k off and steal their creation" idea blows up in peoples faces.

Thank you so much Chloe.

[BAD]

There's a lot of talk here about what people want to happen. I think we need to step back and think about what is most likely to happen. If we think about it from the perspective of the past, I believe we will get an accurate impression of what Cyan is most likely to do, and what the fan reaction will be.

First there was Uru Live released with Ubisoft. The promise of an on going stream of puzzles and ages attracted people from all walks of life, with one thing in common, a love of Adventure gaming.

Uru Live shuts down causing a huge disappointment in Cyan and Ubisoft. At this point the loss is mild for most, they are hurt but they can move on. For those more savy with modding and programing, begin to talk about using the Uru Live files to create their own servers. Expansion packs are released for the single player games and add new wrinkles to the efforts to create fan run servers.

Alcugs emerges. Cyan finds out about it and seem to be supporting the idea without giving any kind of permission. At that time they probably decide to release their own server software to curtail Alcugs becoming so popular they lose footing to get fans back if they find another publisher. Until uru is born.

UU explodes with creativity for the moders. Code is unlocked, studied, and rewritten. Not everyone finds this a good thing. Some in the know people hear murmurings that Cyan may find another backer for Uru soon. Many arguments break out between moders and purists. With moding comes bug fixes. UU eventually becomes the most stable version of Online Uru.

Once fairly stable, Cyan opens their own shard, Dmala. They use the fixes and some mods from the fan run servers. This is also the platform they use to sell Uru to prospective publisher. Publisher is impressed by the fan base and the game itself.

Myst Online; Uru Live begins. Cyan wants to keep their *entire* fan base. They realize that the range of moders to purists is a wide band, not two extremes. They try to find a way to please everyone and keep Gametap happy with the number of subscribers. This is a next to impossible feat.

Cyan, possibly from pressure by Game Tap, decides to shut down Until Uru. This pleases the people who lean torwards purism, but upsets the moding community. Especially since the fixes and mods that were officially allowed were removed from the new version of the game. Cyan hatches the Fan creation license idea. It had been around since Myst, but now it can be a way to keep the moders and the purists together.

MOUL ends. Everyone is upset. This is the third time the game is shut down. No one is happy, most people leave outright. Cyan attempts to keep some people on the hook with promises of putting up a server when they can generate enough money, and other things. Moders do their own thing. Many great strides in creation take place as there is no pressure to get any officialness.

And here we are. A server is up. Cyan is promising some form of open source. With nothing better to do, we argue about what that means, and how it will be run.

Now what I see is a company that wants it's fans to be as happy as possible. They want to make money off of that idea too, but they have to find a balance between those who lean towards only Cyan content and those who lean towards fan created content.

Logically it would be best to release server code again to allow fan run servers. This would allow moders a much easier way to come up with bug fixes and mods that would benefit the main hub (their server).

They don't have to release the game code. I would actually be surprised if they did. They want a healthy mod community, but they don't want to put all their cards on the table either.

They will release their tools, or tools they dumb down or rewrite, for use in creating game files. They said they were gonna do it plain and simple. Sure they could back out of this, but there's no real danger in doing this. There are already tools that could potentially do the same things that were fan made.

They will try to find some way to control what people make and put up for download. Why? It's Cyan, they like making things difficult. That's why they are the best at making puzzles. This will cause the most uproar in the mod community. No creator wants their creation put through a battery of tests unless they are in control of it. Also creators usually don't like the idea of some other fan scrutinizing their work with some BS fake fandom position.

Those are my observations anyway. I could be dead wrong. I usually am.

PS: Don't just go by what I write. There are tons of old forums to check where you can piece the story together yourself. You really can get a feel for how CYan makes business decisions.

[Paradox]

They will release their tools, or tools they dumb down or rewrite, for use in creating game files. They said they were gonna do it plain and simple. Sure they could back out of this, but there's no real danger in doing this. There are already tools that could potentially do the same things that were fan made.

Yes...I have chatlogs from June/July 2006 D'mala where Chogon said releasing their 3DS Max plugin was a "priority" when MOUL came out.

[GPNMilano]

What Cyan seems to want is keep jealous control of its existing content, in the off-chance it could someday develop it again into a commercial venture. Although we smile at this naive idea, it is their prerogative to do so. But since we know it isn't going to happen, Cyan should open itself to our input, and abandon its current philosophy of "if it's not made by Cyan, it's not good".

This is not Cyan's philosophy, and you are now putting words into their mouths. Cyan has asked us to keep to the confines of a set of rules regarding fan created content. The majority of those lines involve the places, people and events of already revealed D'ni history. Cyan judges have actually judged each of the RADs. Chogon himself has stepped foot into fan created ages and put his two sense in on those ages. No one from Cyan has the philosophy of fan created content not being good.

In that sense, Cyan's arbitrary rule about not adding D'Ni Ages or adding to the city is not viable.

Cyan's rule isn't that you can't have D'ni ages. They just ask that they're not D'ni ages that they've already revealed, or planned to reveal down the line. That is all. You can make a Neighborhood. You can make a part of the cavern, they just ask that you're careful that your area or age doesn't conflict with already predetermined canon. Adding to the City itself however is not allowed you're right. Unless that area is self-contained and not one of the already revealed buildings. You can create a new building in the J'ateri (Sp?) District if you so choose. You just can't add to A'guera itself.

D'Ni has to grow! We need, for example, to be able to create journeys through major Ages, that will unlock new parts of the City. Otherwise MOUL will become a cumbersome, graphical chat room. It will lose its momentum, stop, decay and disappear.

I agree completely, and you can do all of those things. Provided you stick to the rules of canon. As long as you don't conflict with already existing canon you're free to do whatever you want. why is that so hard to comprehend? Just because you can't add a new room to the palace, or add the interior of the Takotah building? Sorry, you don't get that right. You yourself once had posted a peice of artwork you wanted to base an age on. YOU posted it. You wanted to make an age on it. I saw it, and was inspired to do the same. What did I do? I asked you if it was okay. You said no. Did I go out and do it anyway? NO. Why. Respect. Respect for your desire to finish an age you found a concept for. In this parallel. You're Cyan, and I am you. I asked. You said no. I lived with it and came up with another idea. You don't get the right to now choose differently because you're in a different position. You live with the rules set up or you find another idea. Simple as that. D'ni is a huge place. Just cause Cyan wants to keep the A'egura and it's already released/concepted art ideas theirs. Doesn't stop you from creating another place that's not those places. You want to build a neighborhood. They're fine with you doing so. You want to create an island in the cavern, that's fine too. Hell you can even allude to it being a specific island they've talked about. Just as long as you don't SAY that it's definitely that island.

It's like adding to any already established mythos. You can't add to the Star Wars mythos a story in which one of your characters kills the Emperor. Why? Cause Darth Vader killed the emperor. You can't redesign the Millennium Falcon's interior. Why cause it's already been alluded to what it looks like. But you're free to design a ship based on the Millennium Falcon. And you're free to design an area of D'ni that's based on something else. You just need to stick to a few set guidelines in how you deal with that canon. That's the nature of expanded universes. You don't get the right to step on the original creators toes. You're only adding to their vision, not redefining the universe to fit your mold of what it should look like.

[rivenwanderer]

That's the nature of expanded universes. You don't get the right to step on the original creators toes. You're only adding to their vision, not redefining the universe to fit your mold of what it should look like.

Well, in an open source world, you *can* do whatever you like, you just don't get to have your cake (place your content in Cyan's realm) and eat it too (go against Cyan's canon-related rules). I don't see a problem with people doing one or the other, just not both

[kaelisebonrai]

I agree completely, and you can do all of those things. Provided you stick to the rules of canon. As long as you don't conflict with already existing canon you're free to do whatever you want. why is that so hard to comprehend? Just because you can't add a new room to the palace, or add the interior of the Takotah building? Sorry, you don't get that right.

We are modders, we will do what we wish to do. And we will improve things by doing so. Modders have long ignored that, and often have improved the game they mod by doing so. Sometimes the needs the many (the community) outweigh the needs of the few (cyan).

[GPNMilano]

We are modders, we will do what we wish to do. And we will improve things by doing so. Modders have long ignored that, and often have improved the game they mod by doing so. Sometimes the needs the many (the community) outweigh the needs of the few (cyan).

I'm not talking about Just Cyan. I'm talking about EVERYONE who contributes to Uru. This idea that "I can add onto this place cause I have the ability to do so, and therefore the right to." Is ludicrous. Take Eder Licinius for example. I have plans for that castle, I have plans for the stone hut. I have plans for what's behind the door in Chloe's Hood Office. The moment someone steps in and does that before I do, and then DISTRIBUTES that work, it impedes my work as a creative artist. You don't get to come in and repaint the Mona Lisa's smile just cause you don't like it. Show a little respect when it comes to the creative works of others and they will do the same for you.

[Trylon]

You don't get to come in and repaint the Mona Lisa's smile just cause you don't like it.

I can'!? Really?
/me runs back to the Louvre to unto last night's upgrades to the painting.

[kaelisebonrai]

We are modders, we will do what we wish to do. And we will improve things by doing so. Modders have long ignored that, and often have improved the game they mod by doing so. Sometimes the needs the many (the community) outweigh the needs of the few (cyan).

I'm not talking about Just Cyan. I'm talking about EVERYONE who contributes to Uru. This idea that "I can add onto this place cause I have the ability to do so, and therefore the right to." Is ludicrous. Take Eder Licinius for example. I have plans for that castle, I have plans for the stone hut. I have plans for what's behind the door in Chloe's Hood Office. The moment someone steps in and does that before I do, and then DISTRIBUTES that work, it impedes my work as a creative artist. You don't get to come in and repaint the Mona Lisa's smile just cause you don't like it. Show a little respect when it comes to the creative works of others and they will do the same for you.

You're generalising.

I have not, nor has any other, altered another community member's age. I don't see why that's being brought up. I doubt it will begin to happen, either.

I have, and will continue to mod/hack/alter Cyan's ages. You may not consider what you have done to be doing so, but, I /do/. Those Global files, are Cyan created content. The clothing, etc. Those are Cyan Created Content. you have modded them, you have hacked them, you have altered them. Cyan is a company, not an individual, and there is a large difference there.