3DS Max 7 vs 3DS Max 8 and beyond

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Re: 3DS Max 7 vs 3DS Max 8 and beyond

Postby Paradox » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:38 pm

andylegate wrote:But there is a limitation to that: SDL file. I can't make changes to it and see them with the Internal Client. I have to wait until Mark does a rebuild and updates the SDL file I send him (which is actually a raw text file since MOUL uses a different format for SDL than the one POTS used).

If you mean a different encryption format, then yes. The actual textual format is the same between engines (but not the same as Myst V).
I'd assume that all files would be handled in plaintext form, and the build process being the encryption stage.

andylegate wrote:Colliders: we discovered (and Mark warned me about this) that a lot of colliders that seemed to work just fine on a POTS type setup or Alcugs shard, misbehaved on the MOUL server Cyan set up for us (we tested things on the actual MOUL:a server first, then the company that is sponsering this paid Cyan to set up our own actual physical server that our project runs on).
I found doorways blocked suddenly. Walls that I could suddenly walk through, etc.

Turns out PhysX is less forgiving than Havok. I had to go in and change the shape or geometry of some of the colliders, in order to get them to work correctly.

Some of this is due to differences in the physics engine, and a lot of this is to do with how PhysX was implemented. Uru's code was already designed with all the assumptions of Havok, and to make it use PhysX "properly" (to its full potential) would have required changes to a lot more than just the colliders. Animations, cameras, sounds, etc. would also have been affected.
Cyan took the easier and more time-effective route here, and replaced the core Havok stuff with PhysX while keeping the rest of the assumptions the same.

andylegate wrote:Sound files. Seems as though POTS doesn't mind just having a .ogg file, and in just about any format.
MOUL on the other hand is a bit picky about that. In many cases, it wants a .wav file too (and not because it's a non-spatial sound, or has to be streamed). We found that many of our home-grown sound effects were not working until I made .wav versions of them and Mark added those to the server. We also had issues of the home made sound files not liking this format:

44 Khz, 16 bit Stereo. or 44 Khz, 32 Bit Float Stereo.

Instead, it wanted the home made files to be 44 Khz, 16 bit Mono.
Mark is still trying to figure that one out.

It makes sense from a game production standpoint to use the raw, uncompressed wav files in Max, and have the ogg files generated at export time.
In particular, PlasmaMax has some code to handle labels at certain time intervals in a wav file (for synchronizing animations or triggering callbacks).

andylegate wrote:Another thing we noticed (and have not figured out yet). Let's say there is an elevator, and you have the elevator sound emitter parented to the Sub World Dummy. If you are on the bottom floor, and the elevator is several floors above you, when you call the elevator down, as it get's in range of the player, the sound of the elevator should fade in.
Instead, what has been happening is the elevator sound doesn't actually start until the emitter gets within range of the player (causing a delay when you have your responders waiting on the sound to finish before the elevator doors open up).

PhysX doesn't have a concept of subworlds as their own object type, but does some crazy parenting magic to make things work. Not sure if that's the issue or if it's a flag on the SoundMsg, but it seems weird to me to have a sound emitter parented to a subworld. Animating the emitter itself should work without these issues...
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Re: 3DS Max 7 vs 3DS Max 8 and beyond

Postby andylegate » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:32 am

Paradox wrote:PhysX doesn't have a concept of subworlds as their own object type, but does some crazy parenting magic to make things work. Not sure if that's the issue or if it's a flag on the SoundMsg, but it seems weird to me to have a sound emitter parented to a subworld. Animating the emitter itself should work without these issues...


:shock:

ROFL!!

I never even thought about that! But it does make sense. The emitter is parented to the dummy so I didn't have to animate it, but instead let the animated sub world dummy carry it up and down. I'll have to give that a try when I get a chance and see what happens.
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Re: 3DS Max 7 vs 3DS Max 8 and beyond

Postby N. Sigismund » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:59 am

Cheers Andy.

Two things occur to me. One, although this might require a bit of Chogon's time, couldn't he just add in Blender+PyPRP2 into the build process? As in somebody submits a Blender Age, Chogon starts building the game and those Blender Ages are built using Blender like - I'd assume - Max ages are built using Max. That would solve many, many problems. Two - coding a better asset manager for PlasmaMax (in fact, coding one that works with both PlasmaMax and PyPRP2) seems like it would be quite helpful.
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Re: 3DS Max 7 vs 3DS Max 8 and beyond

Postby andylegate » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:30 pm

To quote both Mark and Rand:

"Nobody here knows anything about how to use Blender or the Fan Tools."

What you are suggesting would work (as a wild guess from me), however, more than likely to get what you are talking about done, will take the talent of the people here that have helped build PyPRP2, and those that have intimate knowledge of Blender and Plasma in building scripts for it.

So again, it will more than likely take people from here to get this done. The "when" is the big question, and I'm seeing that the "when" will be when Mark has the time to work with people from here (or any Fans for that matter) on MOUL:a stuff, and that will be (based upon what they (Cyan) are doing right now), when they have breaks in between these iPhone apps they have been making and working on. They just finished Bug Chucker and got it beta tested, (but it got sent back from Apple due to some compatibility problems, and Mark spent like 72 hours straight getting those fixed), then once it was at the iTunes store, he and others went to work on the Android version. Then, as you all saw, they needed beta testing done for that.
Right now he is working on updates for Stoneship.

This is pretty much how it goes. Every time I think he's going to have free time for MOUL:a, instead another iPhone thing comes up, and those take priority over everything of course.

I would think that he could let people go ahead and get work done on it. But, and if you all think I have Cyan's Ear you're gravely mistaken (about MOUL:a anyways), as for every 10 suggestions I make, I get an answer back on 1, and even then it's normally the old "MOUL:a is on a back burner right now." answer.

The only reason Mark is chatty with me is because of this private project that another company is funding that I just lucked out to be on. I do get to learn things here and there, but nothing earth shattering. Cyan's future plans are just as much a mystery to me as anyone else here.

However, since I do have a ear at Cyan to bend, I have been pushing to let you guys get more work done, but at the same time, it's like trying to pull teeth from a elephant. Part of it is the mantra of "MOUL:a takes back burner", but I also get the feeling they are a bit hesitant for reasons I'm not sure of, and don't want to speculate on as I have no proof. But I would ease up on the bashing. They do hear about that, or get it sent to them. But that's just a suggestion. I believe constructive critiques are a good thing myself.

But I will keep pushing the names here with them (Hoikas, Branan, Lontahv, Zrax, Dox, etc) as people I know for a fact that have extensive knowledge and can help them in a big way build a Fan Age pipeline.
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Re: 3DS Max 7 vs 3DS Max 8 and beyond

Postby Branan » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:47 pm

Most of the bashing is just... frustration. We (collectively, some of us haven't been around as long as others) have been offering help and patches for years, and Cyan's response is generally to ignore our offers. If there was at least an explanation it wouldn't be so bad. But quite frankly at this point the general feeling is "Clearly they don't want our help, let's just move on and do our own projects". And naturally we consider anyone who doesn't want our help to be not thinking quite clearly ;)

That being said... We'd all still love to help, if Cyan asks (And they gave us such an opportunity recently. With a security fix no less). We're just to the point where we're fed up with our offers being ignored. We were all quite hopeful that after that security fix there would be more cooperation, but we've basically been shut out again.
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Re: 3DS Max 7 vs 3DS Max 8 and beyond

Postby andylegate » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:56 pm

Okay, for those of you that were interested, here is a conversation I just had with Mark in chat (he said he didn't mind if I shared):
Show Spoiler


So unfortuantely we wait more.

On the not getting an answer thing: This conversation with Mark is rare for me. Most times our conversations are tied down with the project we are working on. He doesn't have time to go into MOUL:a.

But I don't take it as a snub. As a matter of fact, Mark seemed surprised earlier today when I mentioned it to him. He told me he's not snubbing anyone, and is very sorry if y'all think that. It';s just he's one person doing the job of about 10 people, and just doesn't have the time. But he also doesn;t have the power to make decisions on many things.

I say, you guys go ahead, get the test server going, and then figure out a build system for it yourself (yah, I know.....more than likely you're not planning on including anything that I've made. And that's okay. I'm pretty much used to being treated like a low life around here, but that still doesn't stop me from recommending all of you to Mark, I believe in your abilites.....even if your people skills need some work, that doesn't stop me from recommending how good most of you are at what you do). Once you figure out your very own pipeline, then there should be no reason that MOUL:a can not adapt to the same thing (and no, please don't go into the "they won;t listen to us" thing. As "they" being one person is over worked as hell right now, but I know he'd appriciate some sort of system already set up that would work., politics aside).

Okay, I'll go back and crawl under the rock that a few here think I should be under. I've got to finish the Tram system I;m building for our project. BTW - Thank you Dox! I think you nailed what my problem was, I appriciate it.

EDIT: PS - please forgive Mark for his comment about Blender not being as "good" as Max. 1 ) He's never messed with Blender, and 2) He's not seen the latest version of it, nor your tools. He's not belittling your work, he just doesn't know is all.
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Re: 3DS Max 7 vs 3DS Max 8 and beyond

Postby andylegate » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:45 pm

Side Note for Paradox:

Turns out the problem with the sound emitter had nothing to do with it being parented to the Subworld dummy.
Instead, it was the sound emitter's Sound Falloff Distance. I used PRPShop and took a look at Teledahn's elevator sound emitter, and Er'cana's train engine emitters. Both had large falloff distances (10 feet to 250 feet for Teledahn, and 10 feet to 500 feet for Er'cana's train).
The falloff distance for my elevator emitter was 5 feet to 50 feet, but the elevator shaft is 300 feet deep. So I changed the fade off from 50 feet to 300 feet, and this time it worked perfectly: the elevator's sound gradually fades in as you wait for it to get to you, and stops right on time with the elevator.

Just thought you'd like to know what it was I found. Thanks for the help though.
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