Rules for Age Content

[belford]

"Right now the idea is to test Ages on CC and then move them to Uru Live when they are 100% complete."

Perhaps that's your idea, but it's never been my idea. And we have no clue what Cyan will eventually roll out. (And if they're taking suggestions from us, then this post is mine.)

(Requiring ABM/CC as a staging area has all sorts of problems -- starting with the fact that you have to pay money for CC, and it's out of print. Why should anyone bother with that, once UL Age creation becomes possible?)

"Why should we ask Cyan to host Ages that might never be completed when we can test and finish Ages without hosting them on their servers?"

Because Writing will suffocate if you lock it in a closet.

Writing -- and I mean any kind of writing, design, creation -- requires feedback. You do sketches and experiments and start works that may never be finished. And then you show them around! Yes, there will be projects which are developed privately (or in private groups) so that the completed work can be released to the public all at once. But I'm *not* talking about those.

Look at what we're doing on these forums. Sketches, ideas, and snippets. Don't imagine that the GoW forum is some kind of secluded garden -- we're passing this stuff around the Uru community. The forum is a gathering point for the slice of the community who are interested. And the same will be true for Ages. You can post a MP3 file or a screenshot on a web page; posting an Age means walking around in it.

Trust me when I say that the biggest boost that Age creation will ever get is the first time players can link into an Age that one of us created. We *want* that to happen. Soon. The first day it can possibly happen. The first square platform in an empty space that I build in UL, I'm throwing it open to the world. Think it's dull? Outdo me!

(Yes, there may be a separate nexus or server or shard for new, untested, in-progress work. That's a technical detail -- or a boundary of community sorting and approval, which has its own value. But it's not a magic line. The audience is not "the Guild of Writers", but every player who is interested in seeing how player work is coming. In other words: a slice of Uru Live players. And if UL players want to see it, it should be on the UL system.)

[Whilyam]

Because Writing will suffocate if you lock it in a closet.

Then, in my opinion, it should suffocate. Giving out un-finished or never-finished ages will do nothing but attract derision to the work of the Guild. If people are unable to take that, to deal with that, then what are they even doing? If you start something and never finish or release something shoddy and poor, you blight your talent.

[Nadnerb]

Come now. Just because you made something stupid, you don't "blight your talent"
Everyone makes shoddy work at some point. Usually when they're just starting out. It has to receive criticism to improve over time.
Work on something by yourself in isolation, and you'll start to like the dumbest ideas just because you've been staring at them for years. Outside input is essential.

[Simon_Bitdiddle]

I'd also like to see something in regards to GoW reuse, along the lines of 'Content created by the Guild of Writers can and may be reused in multiple Ages.'

This would allow many Writers to collaborate and extend upon the efforts of other Writers without the overriding sense that 'Writer A wrote this for the Foo Age, so it's his baby and I have to create something of my own because it's theirs.'

Also, I'd recommend something akin to allowing Cyan to use the content that the Fans create in their Official Ages.

[Pryftan]

I absolutely agree that writing Ages requires feedback, belford. And we'll post our material somewhere so we can test our Ages as a group. But it won't be Cyan's servers, because they don't expect Gametap users to have to become debuggers. They're paying, so all content should be complete if it's accessible. I don't really have anything else to add other than what Whilyam said.

That's a good point, Simon, and I'll add it to the list. As to our own copyrights, I guess models, self made textures, and music are our own work, but the Ages themselves as a whole rely on Cyan proprietary technology. So I don't see Cyan using our stuff really, but I'll note that GoW content spans the entire guild.

[Whilyam]

Come now. Just because you made something stupid, you don't "blight your talent"
Everyone makes shoddy work at some point. Usually when they're just starting out. It has to receive criticism to improve over time.
Work on something by yourself in isolation, and you'll start to like the dumbest ideas just because you've been staring at them for years. Outside input is essential.

Come now, yourself. I know everyone makes shoddy work. That doesn't mean Cyan should feel pressured to let everyone who can make a solid plane in Blender put their age out for paying customers to look at. Outside input is needed, but we can do that internally. Either with a GoW "test shard" or using an offline MOUL program (like what CC is now, but just for age testing). Maintainers would need something similar.

[Nadnerb]

I know everyone makes shoddy work. That doesn't mean Cyan should feel pressured to let everyone who can make a solid plane in Blender put their age out for paying customers to look at. Outside input is needed, but we can do that internally. Either with a GoW "test shard" or using an offline MOUL program (like what CC is now, but just for age testing). Maintainers would need something similar.

I agree entirely.

However, that is hardly the vibe you were giving off in your post "Then, in my opinion, it should suffocate." Belford, who you were (I assume) responding to, actually suggested "a separate nexus or server or shard for new, untested, in-progress work".

[Whilyam]

He also said "Trust me when I say that the biggest boost that Age creation will ever get is the first time players can link into an Age that one of us created. We *want* that to happen. Soon. The first day it can possibly happen. The first square platform in an empty space that I build in UL, I'm throwing it open to the world. Think it's dull? Outdo me!"

The suffocate bit he wrote was responding to Pryftan's "Why should we ask Cyan to host Ages that might never be completed when we can test and finish Ages without hosting them on their servers?"

That seems to suggest he wants to do that. To have uncompleted ages out there just because. I think that will only make people continue the stigma against fan ages as being nothing worthwhile, as being substandard. We should do nothing to perpetuate that myth. We must give out completed content or else we'll hear that the Guild's just an Uru-based Second Life.

[Pryftan]

I might add that it's very improbable Cyan is just going to hand us the password to their server and say "Have fun, guys". I can't imagine getting an Age on UL will be easy in any sense. At least at the beginning, they'll want to test it to make sure it won't crash people's computers, before they trust us enough to do our own debugging. I'm not sure I trust us to do our own debugging, simply because if we want to REALLY test an Age we'll have to try it out on many different systems to see if they can handle it. No matter what, putting Ages on Cyan's server will be an ordeal, and not one we'll want to bother going through for an Age that's any less than 100%.

But we should and will find out ways to test Ages across the Guild, whether by private server or just hosting the raw files somewhere for Guildmembers to download. As it is Trylon's got a great system going on with ULM.

[belford]

Yes, paying customers will see unfinished Ages. The Guild of Writers consists entirely of paying customers. So does the Guild of Maintainers.

You're thinking of the GoW as somehow separate and above the masses. We can survive seeing unfinished Ages, but they will be scarred forever! Bosh. We're not smarter or more discerning than those "Gametap customers" you folks are going on about. And if Guild policy is to treat other players as mere consumers, then you can bet those other players will treat the Guild as a bunch of arrogant windbags who aren't worth paying attention to. (A *small* bunch, because who'd join a group that treated them like that?)

Whilyam wrote, describing my post: "To have uncompleted ages out there just because."

Just because? I thought I made my reasons clear. I'll try to be clearer:

Have uncompleted Ages out there to inspire new writers. To be able to discuss techniques. To show off your first night's Blender work and get comments the next morning. To give an idea of what you're going for, so that people can say whether it's worth continuing with. To demonstrate that Age Writing is possible. To show that it's happening, from day one. To show how many people are doing it. To grab the attention of players who didn't know they were interested in building (or testing) techniques. To show off how much fun we're having. To attract new Writers into joining our community, rather than going off in their own closet to work. To prove to everyone playing Uru that they're Writers too -- they only have to start Writing.

(Footnote: if you think I'm arguing against mechanisms of quality selection, then I am very sad. What I'm saying is that "We won't let you see what we're working on" is not a tool of quality selection. We can label, we can promote, we can categorize. But we cannot withhold -- not if we want to remain relevant.)