So Much For "We the People"

[Jennifer_P]

I will also concede that we will not close the GC voting polls for the candidates until the acceptance poll is satisfied.

That would be quite acceptable. I'm satisfied now.

I also see that Teedyo has begun the poll for me; that being the case, may I reiterate my second proposal?

2. Secondly, I propose that a global sticky be attached at the top of all subfora, clearly announcing that a vote on the acceptance of the Document is taking place, so that the entire Guild population may be informed of this important event.

[Trylon]

Let me start by saying that I am not against the idea Jennifer proposes, and in fact applaud the effort, as well as the poll that currently was started by Teedyo here.
Having you guys be involved as well makes this more of a community effort indeed. (Like it or not, you're part of the "minority" now )

I'll go and change the ending date of the GC polls now...
Perhaps someone could also move Teedyo's post to the "Submitted proposals" thread?

That being said, I do have a few points I wish to share (some just for the fun of it, I admit):
1) Jennifer, the idea of your post is reasonable. However, speaking from a non-US-redident perspective here, I think the way you present your reference to the US Consitution borders on a fallacy, because of the heavy emotional value and feelings of american patriotism, that is associated with it. To US-residents this may be a way to get support, but to non-US residents, it on the contrary can evoke the opposite feelings, because in some countries, the american patriotism is viewed as more than a little silly. For a european like me, the US Constitution also has no real value. That being said, I do think you made your point quite exellent. I

2) I really wish these points were raised in the beginning, as our posts always clearly implied that we did not intend to have this put through vote (good or bad as it may be). I'm certainly not opposed to it, I just wished that it was addressed earlier.

3) Food for thought:
This is actually a funny situation because any rules guiding a system where members have decision rights can only be made (though often indirectly) valid by decree, rather than a vote, as any rules that would regulate such a vote to accept the system would require another system to guide that vote, the set-up of such a system would at one point requrie a decree. (Welcome in the world of infinite loops.) So technically by complaining about lack of voting on something they perceive as decreed, people actually decree themselves that there should be a vote, thus making them no better than those they complain about for having decreed. I.e. someone actually has to decree that a vote on the new system does have any power.
Headache yet?

[andylegate]

Heheheheh....Trylon's last statement.......

Those that oppose any type of rules or structure, get upset and say you can't put something in place with out a vote.......as though it were against rules that exsist, which they don't.........welcome to Anarchy.

That's why it cracked me up when I read somewhere, that someone had called the Guild of Writers over here the Guild of Anarchy.

Oh, and Trylon, your are right about Jennifer's use of the US Constitution, in that it might not appeal to Non-US residents. But on the thought that our Patriotism viewed as a little silly.

First, I'm an American and damn proud of it, especially since I served my country for 10 years, and in war.

Now, with that out of the way , I remember when I grew up during my teen years over in Europe, many people over there, were actually very proud of their heritage too, they're just not as loud about it (of course that's pretty much how Americans are looked at, those "loud-mouthed busy bodies"), but I do remember meeting people from the UK that were very strong in their feelings of "Queen and Country", Germans who were very fond of their homeland, and French that would darn near cry at the thought of their country.
Except the Italians........which is where I lived mostly......They have a very,......interesting view of goverment. Raise taxes and they'll throw piles of tires across busy roadways and light them on fire...(missed a day a school for that, thanks guys!), and if you all thought people in the US Congress, UK Parlament, and others get rowdy when they argue, you haven't seen nothing until you get two Italian officials that are at odds with each other......it's like........w o w.......

However, one important thing that everyone should remember here....we are not all Americans, so we shouldn't try to force our ideals or way of life on others (all though in RL we do seem to try and do that a lot). However, most of us here come from countries that do offer ways for their people to represent themselves and have a say in what their country does (to a point).

As I said before, I'm glad that Jennifer brought this up, and that a poll has been started. Hopefully it will put to rest the question of what "active" members of the Guild want.

[Chacal]

Jennifer, you assignment is due on Thursday. Get the hell out of this forum and back to work!

[Jennifer_P]

It's due on Friday actually--only my presentation is due on Thursday (and *cough* *cough* one other minor detail, my final exam in landscape formation)... Well, I suppose I'd better be going now...

[Nadnerb]

Surprisingly, I'm not nearly as perturbed by this as Jennifer seems to have been. I've been saying since the beginning that trying to get a representative segment of the population to vote is not worth the effort, and that those who want to take positions, however pointless and unnecessary the are, should simply step up and occupy them, and as such, I have voted to accept all those who have been nominated/stepped up the the jobs proposed to them. The excessive, verbose, pseudo-legal document that has been drafted is also quite cumbersome and unnecessary, but I don't object overly to it's existence. Some people felt something needed doing, so they stepped up and did it. Flak will be taken for it, but they showed initiative. I continue to object strongly to the idea of closed/hidden forums, but that's another topic, and a specific grievance with their proposal, and so, not pertinent to this thread.

[BAD]

"The excessive, verbose, pseudo-legal document that has been drafted is also quite cumbersome and unnecessary"

The Proposal was none of those things, your hurtful comment is unnecessary.

[Whilyam]

Correct. If an idiot wants to play world domination with the Writers, they'll be the ones losing out. The Writers guild won't stop me from releasing an age, the Maintainers will, and they deal with purely ToS-related rules.

[BAD]

LOL, World domination.....

Perhaps we could get Zardoz over here to be our unholy dictator!

[andylegate]

The Writers guild won't stop me from releasing an age, the Maintainers will, and they deal with purely ToS-related rules.

Right now we can't stop squat! However, when ever someone puts their Age up on the ULM, we of course take a look. Right now if we saw something that didn't look good (Something from one of Cyan's Ages, a playboy pin up, vulgar, lewd, or suggestive language, vulgar, lewd, or suggestive Object of some kind) we'd try and get a hold of the Age creator ASAP and let them know. If nothing was corrected, then we'd get a hold of Trylon ASAP and let him know so it could be removed from the Hbyte ULM library.

I don't know how it will work in the future with Cyan, but I don't think they'll give us a blank check and say "Have fun." There will most likely be a LOT of rules that we'll have to keep track of. Which, while that might sound bad, it's better that way as it makes sure that we (the Maintainers) are being fair, and to help protect the Writers from "over zealous" Maintainers..